'Co-ops can put MNCs out of business' -- Dr V. Kurien

(This interview was published in Newstime on Friday 2nd July 1999)

Interview: Dr. V. Kurien

'Co-ops can put MNCs out of Business'

He is considered father of Indian White Revolution. A pioneer of the country's cooperative movement, Dr. Verghese Kurien has already spent over 50 years in the cooperative sector. As oneof the three panel members of the Cooperative Initiative Panel -- envisaged as a pressure group for the cause of the cooperative sector in the country -- Dr. Kurien speaks at length on the subject in an interview with Deepak Parvatiyar. Excerpts:

Dr. Kurien, having spent over 50 years in the cooperative sector, where do you find the sector positioned today?

I think with every passing year the cooperative movement is becoming stronger in India, particularly in the dairy field. Today we have 175 Anands. Those Anands have a membership of 10 million farmers and they are located in 22 states in India. They have at the village level 70,000 village cooperatives. They are all running reasonably well. And every year this progress is better. India's milk production which was stagnating at about 20 million tonnes per annum has now reached a figure of 76 million tonnes and India has emerged as the largest milk producing country in the world. A country that was importing all dairy products is now exporting. The last export was to New Zealand and to the United States. So the cooperative movement in dairy has performed extremely well to such an extent that the rest of the world is astonished and also uncomfortable.

But what about other areas? Has the cooperative movement failed there?

It may have. But somebody mentioned that they have done well in Maharashtra in sugar. Very good. They also said they are controlling politics in Maharashtra. It is better for them to control, farmer's body to control, farmers' body to control than for the industrialists to control. What is wrong in it?

Is political interference always there in the cooperative sector?

Not always.

But is it a major bottleneck?

You see most of those who run cooperatives like me, it is we, the chairmen of cooperatives, who invite politicians to interfere. Very often it is not the politician that interferes. Because we ask them for favours and in return they ask for control. So if you run a cooperative as a good business, a clean business, then no politician is interfering. And my experience is that they do not interfere where they know their interference will not be tolerated.

How many such cooperatives are actually there?

We are fairly large. In Maharashtra, you say, they are controlling the politician. Where are the politicians interfering?

But this is only in three or four states...

Theek hai (It's okay), it is the beginning. We are only 50 years into this.

Isn't this a long time?

In the life of a nation, nothing.

So now that you are demanding new legislation for cooperatives, what would be the thrust on?

The thrust would be to treat the cooperatives the same way you treat businesses. In other words the Registrar of Cooperative Societies' powers should be reduced to that of the Registrar of Companies.

But isn't this a long standing demand of the cooperative sector?

Yes. And it is a very reasonable demand. It will have to be conceded.

But why is it that in the last two or three years, only two or three states have taken steps in this direction?

No. More are taking it up now. And that is the Cooperative Initiative Panel's job to see more states give freedom.

Andhra Pradesh in fact is the pioneering state...

Andhra passed another cooperative law saying that where the government has no share capital and the government has guaranteed no loans, the government will not have any say in the cooperatives. That is how it should be.

Which are the other states to have followed Andhra Pradesh?

Well, I have noticed that in Gujarat they do not interfere. Even if they want to interfere, they are very careful. Because after all, if I am the chairman of the Gujarat Cooperative Milk Marketing Federation, I am the chairman of five million farmers. Now it is not healthy to  interfere.

But then we saw when there was a change in government in Gujarat four years ago, there were raids in the godowns of the National Dairy Development Board (NDDB)...

That the NDDB is not a cooperative. That is a separate story.

But again, was it targeted at you for you were the chairman of the NDDB then?

NDDB...(pause) there was an attempt by the civil supplies department (of the Gujarat government) to seize the stocks of NDDB which were lying at Kandla port. Now we pointed out that they had no authority to seize what was lying at Kandly port because if they seize that comes through Kandla, then Maharashtra government will seize what comes through Bombay. It may be meant for Madhya Pradesh. So this sort of 'dadagiri' is not on and we went to court and the court stayed them from seizing any of our stocks.

So wasn't this a personal attack on you to challenge your supremacy?

No. On the contrary today I am sure that...you see some people because of their background (in this case the then Gujarat Civil Supplies minister Jaspal Singh who was an IPS officer before he joined politics)... if the minister was a policeman, he may act as a policeman even when he is a minister. But pretty soon I think...he and I are good friends today. He has understood that I was right.

One demand that you are making is that the political parties should mention about their commitments to a free cooperative in their election manifestoes...

They must make a commitment to free cooperatives in their election manifestoes.

Will it materialise?

I think they will make it. But the more important question is that after making the promise will they implement it when they come to power.

How far has the Cooperative Initiative Panel been successful in lobbying for the cooperative sector?

We have access in the highest level of government in every state...at least five states have agreed (to our demands).

How many members does the panel have?

Right now we have three members (former Planning Commission deputy chairman Mohan Dharia, noted Gandhian economist and former Planning Commission member Dr LC Jain and Kurien). But we are planning to make it broad based. We may even step down.

So do you see a head-start for the cooperative movement from here onward?

Please understand that the cooperative movement in India is very strong.

So you say it will get a fillip with the introduction of the new legislation that you are lobbying for?

Even now...Now Amul. You see you have liberalised, globalised. Does it mean that the private sector multinationals wanted to come into the dairy field? Where are they now? They have retreated because they found that competition with the cooperative is not possible. A cooperative which is run with efficiency and integrity cannot be defeated.

But can an Indian cooperative really be globally competitive?

The fact remains that we have been in baby food. Amul has been in baby food. And when we came into baby food there was Glaxo, there was Lever, Horlicks...several brands were there. And in spite of this we became the largest producer of Baby food in India.

How did you manage to do this in the presence of the Registrar with all those restrictive powers?

No. The registrar may be there. But the Registrar understood that his interference will not be tolerated. His job is to audit the accounts so please do so. Then he discovered that he cannot audit properly because our accounts have been permitted to be audited by a private firm of chartered accountants by the government. These are all progressive changes that are taking place. Now you see a chairman of a cooperative who is not a politician is a rarity. But increasingly...There is nothing wrong in a chairman becoming a politician. It becomes wrong when he uses the cooperative to further his political agenda.

To what extent is it prevalent here?

It is very prevalent inall the districts of Gujarat.

Would you say politicians collude with the Registrar to take control of cooperatives?

It is because the politicians want control of cooperatives. So he uses the Registrar of Cooperative Societies. So it is not so much of the Registrar  that is at fault. It is the minister for Cooperation. I have advocated that there should be no minister for Cooperation. Why should there be a minister?

Will divesting Registrar of his powers help?

It is not divesting of his powers. His powers is to audit the accounts. And if there is any mismanagement or corruption in the cooperative, his job is to see that he prosecutes. I do not want these powers to be curbed. The powers that should be curbed is that he cannot supersede the cooperative. He has no right to appoint the administrator. If he wants to do so it should be through the courts of law.